On my June 2009 travel on the Queen Mary 2 I was seated next to a lovely couple for Florida. They have been long time Cunarders and told me how they got into ‘cruising’.
Years ago, as a very young couple, they travelled on the Queen Elizabeth, the original one. They lacked the money to travel First Class but they got a good glimpse of it. They found a spot from where they could watch the ladies walk down the stairs in their splendid evening gowns at dinner times. That’s what got them hooked. They later travelled on the S.S. France, The United States and quickly became Cunard Diamond members. Their story reminds me of ‘The Forgotten Queen’ and her tragic ending. Let me tell you a little about ‘Lizzie’ as she was affectionately called by her friends.
RMS Queen Elizabeth was a really tragic Queen that was denied a peaceful life in retirement. She was one of the most elegant ocean liners, aptly dubbed ‘The Beautiful Lady’, who went into service on Sep 27, 1938. Built by John Brown & Company in Clydebank, Scotland she was the second of the two superliners (the other being Queen Mary) which Cunard had built for the New York service. With the war looming, her maiden voyage was cancelled and soon she and her sister found themselves in a very different role as troopships for the British Navy. Their speed allowed them to outrun the German U-Boats.After the war, both ocean liners dominated the Transatlantic route. As her name indicates she was a Royal Mail Ship contracted to carry the Royal Mail across the big pond. Decline set in with the coming of the jet airliners and she became uneconomic for Cunard. She was sold to a group of businessmen in Philadelphia who intended to run the ship as a hotel and tourist attraction in Port Everglades, Florida. The RMS Queen Elizabeth made its last Atlantic crossing on 5 November 1968.
However, she did not last long: Losing money and forced to close after being declared a fire hazard, the ship was sold in 1970 to Hong Kong tycoon C.Y. Tung who intended to convert her into a floating university named Seawise University. She arrived in Hong Kong in July 1971 and was scheduled to open after an expensive refit in 1972, however, it never came to that.
On January 9, 1972 several fires broke out on the ship and she capsized in shallow water in Hong Kong Victoria Harbour. With her destruction so utter and complete she was dismantled for scrap in 1975. What a tragic end to the career of one of the World’s greatest, fastest and most luxurious liners.
There is quite some confusion as to whether the ship was entirely salvaged or not. Many sources on the internet, including Wikipedia quote that parts of the hull that could not be salvaged were later incorporated into landfill for the new Hong Kong Airport.
Ringo Varisco, Curator of the RMS Queen Elizabeth Historical Society, and author of a Queen Elizabeth book scheduled to be published in Fall 2010 explains:
To clear up all the confusion, the 15,000 or so tons which still remain of the Seawise University – the former RMS Queen Elizabeth, are now buried under about 40 feet of mud in the middle of the Rambler Channel which is the stretch of water that separates Tsing Yi Island and mainland Kowloon. The remains are no where near the new airport and have never been covered by a runway as has often been mistakenly claimed. The wreck was cut down as far as the waterline and then large sections were blasted apart underwater until all that remained was a 100 foot long section of double bottom hull containing the aft boiler rooms which were already mostly filled with the muddy sludge of the harbour bottom and deeply buried anyway. So to set the record straight, the original LIZZIE or what’s left of her, still has mud and then water above her, not a runway or other foundations. She was sufficiently buried deep enough to pose no threat to shipping. Her nearest landmarks are the Container Terminal 9 and the brand new Stonecutters bridge.
She even made it into film: The wreck of the Queen Elizabeth was featured in the Bond Movie ‘The Man with the Golden Gun’ (1974) as a covert headquarters for the MI6. The event is commented on while James Bond is cruising on a boat from Macao to Hong Kong. The film commentary however is inaccurate as it mentions the year of the fire being 1971.
To many the Queen Elizabeth was the perfect Queen ever. It is comforting that somewhere on this Earth a part of here still exists, not just the memories of our minds.
If you are interested in more details about this wonderful ocean liner, you may find below list of film and book recommendations as well as links to interesting websites useful.
Top Ocean Liner 1948 is a wonderful video that give a tour of the R.M.S. Queen Elizabeth as it docks in Southampton after a transatlantic voyage. Playtime is about 20 minutes.
I also recommend to watch the footage of RMS Queen Elizabeth during WWII
And finally, a recap of her life including some heart breaking pictures from her final days as Seawise University in Hong Kong.
On this occasion I’d like to take the liberty to point you to one website that is dedicated to this ship: http://rmsqueenelizabeth.com. If you have any interesting material like films or stories which you would like to see published here, please contact 3queensgirl@gmail.com. The site will grow over a time with the help of eye witnesses and Lizzie lovers.
Those interested in documentary drawings might want to check out Ringo Varisco´s post about a wonderful set of documentary drawings by Harry Philpot, founder of the RMS Queen Elizabeth Historical Society. Please click here.
In the library you will find a list of book recommendations from which I’d like to pick two for you: A relatively new book published in 2008 by Clive Harvey: ‘Queen Elizabeth – The Ulimate Ship which is an extremely authoritative, lavishly illustrated history of the ship.208 pages, 70 full-color and 108 b&w illustrations, two fold-out plans, cover painting by Don Stoltenberg, 8.25 x 10.75.
Anyone interested in the QE should read Leonard Stevens ‘Elizabeth: Passage of a Queen’. Unfortunately it is out of print but with a bit of luck you can find used copies on www.amazon.co.uk, www.amazon.com and on http://www.antiqbook.com
For those readers who would like to share photos of RMS Queen Elizabeth, may I invite you to visit the CunardQueens Member’s Gallery where you can create your own albums and upload your photos. Go straight to the Gallery or click on Member’s Gallery while browsing : http://rmsqueenelizabeth.com.
Gabriele, Thank you so much! you have done the ol girl proud. This posting is a tremendous tribute and it really pays homage to the one and ONLY Queen Elizabeth. It will go a long way to making her unforgettable. We salute you!
Thanks goes to the entire Cunard Queens team…THEY are Cunard!!!!!
My introduction to Cunard was an Eastbound Crossing on her in 1962. Seeing my parents dressed up in their finery every night, and sitting out on deck under a cosy blanket watching the angry Atlantic, were absolute perfection. I won a ship’s model in the fancy dress competition, which was always my prized possession until it got lost in our most recent move. I love the QE2 and Queen Mary 2, but the old Queen Elizabeth will always be MY ship. Thank you so much for your wonderful tribute to my special ship.
I have written a novel, Churchill’s Queen, to celebrate the 70th anniversary on 2nd March 2010 of the liner’s historic clandestine maiden voyage. It is available from Amazon, http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0037KMHCE, as a Kindle book and the paperback will be in the shops soon. The story revolves round two Abwehr agents sent to Clydebank to destroy the Queen Elizabeth in her fitting out basin. Although foiled, the story suggests a fictional link which lead to the liner’s destruction 32 years later.
Thought I’d add this to Ringo’s comments re the status of the wreck today.
i lived in Hong Kong for 19 years I have and I been fascinated by the QE after seeing her in Sounthampton as a 5 year old. I decided to do some reseach while I was there as I was disappointed that there was no sign of the wreck whern I arrived in 1988.
The Hong Kong Public Records Office has a lot of information and photos both about the fire and the subsequent scrapping of the wreck which was largely undertaken by Korean divers. I believe one poor soul was killed during the operation which was obviously very difficult and dangerous. If you want to go there you will need to register as a Reader which is very straightforward.
I also spoke at some length with the Marine Department and the guy who was then in charge of dredgingthe harbour. He was familiar with the wreck and knew quite a bit about it.
The first thing to understand is that the layout of the harbour has changed considerably since 1972 because of landfill. THe area occupied by the wreck was open sea but in the early to mid 90’s the area around there was reclaimed to build Container Terminal 9 and the road link out to the new Hong Kong airport at Chek Lap Kok which opened in 1997. Around 25% of the wreck is still down there, unsurprisingly it was not possible to get it all up off the seabed. The keel and the engines are still at the bottom.
The head of dredging at the Marine Department told me taht the front portion of the wreck, around 20% was incorporated into the foundations for Container Terminal 9. I do recall this receiving a lot of local publicity at the time in The South China Morning Post. The road link to the new airport runs very close to this point and there was discussion at the time about it being diverted to avoid the wreck. How accurate this is I do not know but it may explain the rumours about the wreck beeing incorporated into the foundations of the new airport. For the record, the wreck of the QE is around 10 miles from the airport.
The area occupied by the wreck is clearly marked on Sea Charts. It is a QE shaped area marked as “FOUL” meaning underwater obstructions, do not attempt to anchor here.
If you visit Hong Kong, there is a small “shrine” to the QE at the Aberdeen Boat Club with two of the brass fire warning system plaques on display that were recovered from the wreck site some years ago during a dredging operation. It is a private club so you’ll need to ask permission to see it.
I do have a copy of the sea charts with the wreck marked which I will attempt to upload if/when I can find it!
My father was a 40 year Cunard US manager. So I grew up with all of their ships and sailed on most, including the QE. While the QM may have been more famous, I loved the QE more. Cleaner lines, nicer interiors and more open decks. Plus, she was the world’s largest ship for most of her life. Her post-Cunard life was most unfortunate and tragic. I still tear up when I think of her demise. I sailed out of NY alongside both of them in 1967 and 1968, on their final departurers. Then welcomed the QE2 into NY on her maiden voyage in 1969.
Due to my exposure to those famous Cunarders, I became a licensed maritime deck officer and later, a shore based marine manager. With almost 40 years of service and a life long love of great ships.
I still possess many unique items from both Queens, including a 3′ long marketing model of QE. It’s one of my most prized possessions. My father is gone now, but my Cunard link will live with me to my final days.
I wish I could have sailed on both of them but I was just a pip squeak when they were retired and I have to say that one of the saddest photograghs I’ve ever seen is that one of the Elizabeth with her wheelhouse windows sunk down in the hull after that five day fire. I think it was indeed arson by the communists because they hated the fact that the British ruled Hong Kong at that time.
I’ve just recently discovered some great pictures of the Lizzies’ interior in both black & white and color renditions and I must say that she was quite nice and pleasant inside. I suppose that the Mary was intended to replace the Aquitania but had to compete with the Art-Deco masterpiece that was the Normandie and therefore had to combine elements of both of those two great ships in one package. None too shabby in my opinion, but the Elizabeth didn’t have to worry about that sort of competition and therefore could be much more cozy , comfy and homey inside. Again, I wish I could have sailed on her but was too young.
I still remember my first trip to the Queen Mary in Long Beach in Sep. 1973 at age seven and had never before even seen a large ship, let alone gone aboard one. It wasn’t until a couple years later that I discovered the Elizabeth and was a bit shocked to find out it was slightly larger than the Mary. Since then, I’ve tried to find as much info. about her as possible but it’s not as easy to find a lot of good quality pictures of all her first class public rooms as it is with other ships. I guess I’d have to say that the Elizabeth is a more refined and streamlined version of the Mary and looks like it would have been faster if it had ever tried for the Blue Riband.
I remember this ship very well despite my young age at the time. My mother, brother and sister used to go on board to meet my father when it docked in Southampton. We flew out to stay on the ship in Florida courtesy of Cunard when it was a tourist attraction and recall Americans constantly opening doors clearly marked as private.
My mother has recently given me a picture of the ship that has been mothballed all these years and it is signed by all the ships officers at the time headed by Commodore Marr dated August 4th 1969. My father was chief officer at the time and this is the ship where they both met..she was a hairdresser so it was very taboo at the time.
A wonderful Ship..the liners these days don’t come close.
Neil Gosset
Mr. Gosset, you are indeed correct, the cruise ships of today couldn’t hold a candle to the Atlantic steamers of old, despite all their new and modern amenities. While many of them have nice interiors, it’s hard for me to get past their hideous looking exteriors. The original Queens had outstanding exterior profiles that were both sleek & modern for the time and yet just as classic & stylish as their four funneled ancestors that they replaced, including the White Star Olympic Class as well as the Lusitania Class. In addition to that, they seem to have been more reliable to boot as I know of no incident of either of the Queens ever breaking down while at sea and having to be towed. That appears to be a growing problem with these newer ships. The newer ships have yet another characteristic that alarms me and that is their grossly out of proportion ‘height-to-width” ratio. Even the Queens with their nearly ‘square’ height-to-beam tended to ‘roll’ a bit and were fitted with horizontal stabilizers later in their careers. There ought to be a requirement that says that they have to increase the beam in direct proportion to the number of decks they want to add to the ship to ‘square’ it up.
Neil, if you happen to read this would you contact us. We have been trying to contact your Mother at her last known phone number in Wimborne. You will remember Hannelore from the days in Bournemouth. My e mail address is jimreynolds@talktalk.net or phone 01903.249439 Thanks
I was on the Queen Elizabeth in December 1949 coming home (age 8) with my mother, father and 3 brothers.
I can remember it so clearly. I remember the cabin we were in, it had a phone and the staff used to check on us and bring us sweets when our parents were in the bar.
I have a few photos of me and my family sitting at our table in the dining room. I can remember before we docked that they gave a party for all the children. The grownups had a separate party.
I have dinner menus from our voyage which I have treasured all these years.
We went to America because my father had work for 3 years in Venezuela in an oil refinery.
Fond memories.
At long last friend and member Ringo Varisco has released his book, “RMS QUEEN ELIZABETH Cunard’s Big Beautiful Ship of Life.” Available here: http://www.blurb.com/books/4661514-rms-queen-elizabeth This large and impressive coffee table book is a grand salute to one of the world’s most famous and fondly remembered ocean liners. It also pays homage to an unforgettable age when beautiful, one-of-a-kind ships ruled the oceans and of course it salutes the great Cunard Line whose tradition to this day provides ship lovers with that nostalgic link to the past. It is nearly 400 pages long with well over 1000 mostly rare, unpublished photographs – an unprecedented amount in colour, as well as diagrams and ship plans. It is the definitive volume on this most important ship. This book contains much interesting information provided by the Queen Elizabeth’s former passengers and crew, as well as exclusive insights into the ship’s navigation and running as told by her last British Captain, Commodore Geoffrey Marr, taken from a series of nearly 200 letters exchanged between himself and the founder of the RMS Queen Elizabeth Historical Society, Mr Harold Philpot. These two men understood and loved the “Lizzie” more than anyone else. Mr Philpot was also the author of a set of documentary drawings on the ship and to this day they are the most accurate, detailed and complete set of plans on the ship in existence anywhere. Some of the amazing plans are reproduced in this book, however a cd rom containing the full set of 27 professionally scanned plans, is available free from the author upon presentation of the purchase receipt for this book. (normally the price of the plans cd alone is $120.00) Full instructions on how to claim the free, RMS Queen Elizabeth plans cd, are outlined on page 6 of the book. This book has been acclaimed by some of the most successful and well known authors of ocean liner books; it has been a five-year labour of love for the author and it provides the closest experience yet to what it must have been like to have travelled and worked on this maritime legend.
RMS QUEEN ELIZABETH: Cunard’s Big Beautiful Ship of Life
http://www.blurb.com
Great article doing justice to the “Lizzie”. Strange that articles rarely mention that RMS Queen Elizabeth (at 84,000 tons) was in fact the largest of the liners all through her career as a passenger ship and as such was Cunard’s Flagship, her senior captain being Cunard’s Commodore (GT Marr). I sailed on her as a Pursers Officer until her last Atlantic crossing in 1968. That same year the Liz and the Mary passed each other for the last time in mid-Atlantic at night. Both ships activated their cruise lights and hundreds of flashes from cameras were visible to us from the port side of the Mary as they passed each other. (What a disaster that would have been had they literally met; a combined tonnage of 367,000 tons at a closing speed of 50 mph !) I was made redundant as Cunard not only let the two Queens go but also the Carmania, Corinthia, Coronia, Franconia, all in a short space of time and these were substituted with the QE2 and the Cunarder. Fond memories.
Interesting to happen onto this site. I was on the Sept 1968 crossing, my first experience at sea.
Is there a way to locate the present where abouts of a crew member from that sailing? If so, would you please email me?
Sorry. Never kept in contact with anyone from Cunard. It’s a lifetime ago now! Try Googling Cunard Staff etc. Best wishes. Michael.
@Jerry Williams. Nice to read your interesting post. The Queen Elizabeth at 84,000 tons approx was indeed larger than the Queen Mary at 83,000 tons approx but was not as fast so would not have been able to take the blue riband from the Mary. This honour had already been taken by the SS United States – the fastest of the 4 super liners which in the late ’60s were the “Liz”, “Mary”, “United States” and the “France” – which was the longest).
@Michael Potter. The “Mary’ was originally registered at 80,744 tons but her first Winter refit saw the addition of a second story on her aft deckhouse and her tonnage was raised to 81,235 where it remained until after WWII and was again changed to 81,237 and stayed there till the end of her career. The “Elizabeth” had always been set at 83,673 tons but in the 60’s she had her promenade deck extended to the aft docking bridge and an outdoor swimming pool added with wind screens on the sides to make her more marketable in the cruising trade, which was getting more popular than crossings. However, Cunard never saw fit to re-register her tonnage which obviously would have increased with that refit, but since she was already the biggest anyway, I guess they felt it a moot point to change it. The United States could never have been beaten by any other Liner for shear speed with 240,000 horsepower on tap and a gross register of 53,329 tons. Those engines came from a cancelled aircraft carrier and with the more streamlined hull of the “Big U”, were a perfect combination for speed at sea. Sadly, the “United States” had been given a rather boring interior design due to the fireproofing requirement of the govt., but was still quite popular for her first ten years of service. The “Queens” had the best interiors in the old days if one discounts the old four stackers and their opulent “floating palace” designs. But those were hopelessly old fashioned and out of date even by the 1930’s standards. The France of 1962 was a fast ship too, but still could never match the “Big U” which did 43 knots during her sea trials in ’52. After taking the Blue Ribband, the U.S. Line agreed with Cunard to settle her down to a 30 knot routine unless she had to make up for lost time due to weather conditions.
Hi Jerry. Thanks for this. Michael.
My pleasure Mike, I have been an Ocean Liner historian for almost 40 years now and just love this kind of conversation, and no I don’t profess to “know it all”. But I have done my “homework”, as it were, and am well aware that there are many others much older than me that have first hand experience with the “Queens” and I would love nothing more than to hear their own personal accounts of their experiences when those two magnificent ships sailed in their hey-day. I’ve been fortunate enough to have strolled the decks of the “Mary” over a dozen times since she was opened to the public in Long Beach ,California in 1971. I didn’t get there till the fall of 1973 and when I first laid eyes on her from the parking lot, I couldn’t believe this thing could actually float, it just seemed too big. I just wish they hadn’t scrapped the sister of the Titanic, the “Olympic”, in ’35 and the largest and best of the “Lusitania” class, the “Aquitania” in ’50, as those two “four stackers” would be worth their weight in gold buillion today as museums and tourist attractions. Unfortunately, structural problems, the “Great Depression” and pure age sent them to the breakers and we’ll never see the likes of their kind again for eternity. Thankfully, most of the first class Lounge from the Olympic still exists today in the White Swan Hotel in north eastern England in a quaint little town called Alnwick. Wish I could see it someday.
Hi Jerry. Anecdotes.
Each morning the “naughty” boys would be up before the Captain (or usually the staff Captain) to be logged for their misdemeanors (mostly brawling). This took place in the chart room on the bridge and they would be accompanied by a senior officer of their department. As a Purser’s Officer I would often take notes for their record which would influence whether they were employed again by Cunard. Staff Captain Law had a solution if they tried to wriggle out of a conviction. He had a bank style wooden name plate on the desk which he’d turn round for loggings. On the reverse it simply said “My Name Is Law” !!
Wealthy American couples were under the impression that the ship was so big it never pitched or rolled. Oh dear – what a shock they were in for! “Abner, I do hope I won’t be seasick”. “Of course not Mary Jane, this ship doesn’t move in rough seas and anyway it’s got stabilisers” ! Little did he know that in really rough seas the stabilisers were not deployed for fear of them breaking off.
The QE had its own “corkscrew” motion in certain eastbound seas. As the bow met a new wave the stern might just be leaving the previous wave resulting in this weird action. I regret to say that I was a heavy gin drinker in those days which seemed to render me impervious to “mal au mer”.
Happy days! Michael.
Sounds like there was a whole lot of mischief that went on that never made it into the historical accounts, but those “behind the scenes” episodes is what makes it all the more interesting. After all, when you’re on a ship at sea, you’re pretty much isolated from all that which takes place on land and you enter into a whole new realm, so to speak. In essence, the ship becomes your whole universe and you are at it’s mercy, or lack thereof. This is why it is always fascinating to hear stories from those who were actually there, be they passengers or crew. I suspect that all Liners from 800 to a thousand foot long had a tendency to “corkscrew'” in certain sea conditions. I know for a fact that this was the case with the “Mary” early in her career and she was structurally re-enforced in that first Winter re-fit to minimize this problem, but I doubt that it was totally eliminated. The “Mary” was a prototypical / experimental design and had several “gremlins” as a result that had to be fixed. By the time the “Lizzie” came into being, most of the groundwork had already been laid and therefore the majority of the serious problems corrected. However, there isn’t much that can be done to prevent hull twisting in rough seas. A long ship must be both rigid yet flexible or it will eventually break apart, and we all know the result if that should occur in mid-ocean. Wish I could have sailed on both of them, but will have to be content with my prior trips to the “Mary” down in Long Beach, which is only about a hundred miles from my house. Think maybe I’ll go see her again before the month is over.
I was a bridge boy on the “Lizzie” in 1962. I wish I could remember the Captains name at the time, I do recall that his first trip non the “Lizzie” as Commodore was also my first trip and I know from the many telegrams of congratulations I delivered to him from the radio room – and his subsequent replies – that he missed the “Mary” enormously.
I was also on the crossing when the Head Chef died and was buried at sea.
Can anyone tell me who the Commodore was?
Dave Witcombe
It must have been either Commodore Donald MacLean, who made his farewell voyage on the 6th of June 1962, or Commodore John W. Caunce, retiring on the 3rd of February 1963. Both these men captained the QE in 1962.
Later it was Commodore GT Marr, but that was in the later 60s when I was a Pursers Officer on the “Liz”.
Hi Marion. I was about 22 and a purser officer on the Liz during 1998; shortly before she was retired. We must have passed in the gangways!
Imgaine my surprise stumbling on this fine web site today. I was fortunate as a kid and then a young man to have crossed on both the MARY and ELIZABETH from New York to then Cobh, Cherbourg, LeHarve and then on to Southhmpton. The old ‘boat train’ still ran in then going into either Paris or London’s Waterloo Station. My crossing on the ELIZABETH was August, 1968–just months before she was taken out of service. Capt.’Commodore Geoffrey Marr was her master then along with being Commodore of the CUNARD LINE.
The real ‘kicker’ to this was being handed a wonderful log book from the ELIZABETH on her then August 1, 1967 crossing. All notations, figures, reports etc. meticulously entered in fine script and printing by Commodore Marr. The owner, a friend of Marr’s, intends to pass the log on to his children and grandchildren. Even by 1967 the passenger figures show the ELIZABETH was going ‘out’ with far more crew than paying passengers in all classes aboard. The handwriting financially had been on the wall for a number of years prio with CUNARD.
Geoffrey Marr conducted the Sunday ‘divine services’ aboard the ELIZABETH with dignity, style in full uniform, as did his officers. He was a gentlemen of the highest order. At a reception with Marr on my crossing he saddled up to talk. “You know,” he whispered, “they never should have built ships this big,” I was astounded. I am a resident here in Cincinnati, Ohio, U.S.A.
In former days every major American city had a CUNARD office or representative with the usual scale models of the ships in the window or inside. Many thanks for this site and eliciting my still fresh, vivid memories.
I was Bridge Boy on the Elizabeth in 62 under the command of Captain (Commodore) John Caunce.
It was the first trip on her for both of us, he came from the Mary and I from the T.S. Vindicatrix.
A bit of a difference!
It was the common opinion of the day – that passenger ships of this size were obsolete and that bigger ones were inconceivable and totally impractical!
My memory may well be wrong but I do recall that the Elizabeth always had a higher crew compliment than passengers
I recall a figure of 1700 crew and 1300 passengers.
Perhaps someone with more knowledge on the Queens could verify this. I would be interested.
I was on her the voyage the Head Chef died and was buried at sea mid crossing. Any other burials at sea recorded on the Queens?
I have at last found others who wonder why the ‘Elizabeth’ is hardly ever mentioned anywhere. My father was 2nd confectioner on her during WW2 under Reginald Guest. I listened to him as a child telling stories about his time on her and sat with him while he cried while watching the news from Hong Kong when she was on fire
Queen Elizabeth was easily capable of taking the Blue Ribband from Queen Mary, but was forbidden from doing so by Cunard’s management, presumably because they wanted one of the Queens to be the world’s largest ship and the other its fastest.